Francis Chan is looking back at some of his own ministry moments-and apparently, he doesn't love everything he sees.
The bestselling Crazy Love author sat down with Jesus Image founder Michael Koulianos for a remarkably candid conversation on The Jesus Podcast, where the two pastors tackled everything from church celebrity culture and Communion to Catholic-Evangelical unity, social media, preaching and the temptation for Christian leaders to make themselves the center of attention.
And Chan wasn't afraid to point the finger at himself.
"I'm ashamed of some of the podcasts I've done," Chan admitted, explaining that when he listens back, he can sometimes recognize moments when he was being defensive, trying to sound good or simply speaking without sufficiently considering God's majesty.
That's quite a confession from one of evangelical Christianity's most recognizable preachers.
Chan said years of Christian media and ministry had trained him to keep talking. He recalled appearing on Christian radio as a young man and being told to interrupt because "dead space" could cause listeners to change the station. Years later, conference countdown clocks and tightly produced services reinforced that same instinct: keep talking, keep moving, keep the audience engaged.
Now Chan is questioning the whole thing.
Pointing to biblical commands to be quick to listen and slow to speak, Chan said he has become increasingly convicted about careless words and wants his speech to be genuinely edifying rather than simply filling silence.
But the conversation got even more interesting when Chan and Koulianos turned their attention to Christian celebrity culture.
Chan suggested that a renewed reverence for Scripture could dismantle some of the personality-driven machinery surrounding modern ministry.
"If we got back to trembling at the spoken word of God," Chan said, "a lot of this celebrity stuff will be gone."
And he wasn't pretending he had never participated in it.
When discussing churches and conferences built around famous speakers, worship leaders and personalities, Chan admitted, "I fear that there's things I've done that have added to that craziness."
Koulianos immediately responded: "Me, too."
Their conclusion?
"The speaker must become less and Christ must be greater."
That wasn't the only potentially headline-making part of the conversation.
The pair also ventured into territory that could raise some evangelical eyebrows: Communion, ancient Christian practices and hopes for greater unity across historic church divisions.
Koulianos spoke openly about dreaming of Christians eventually being able to gather at "one table," receive "one Eucharist," and recognize one another simply as brothers and sisters. He even questioned exclusion from Communion when the Holy Spirit genuinely dwells within another believer.
When Koulianos asked Chan which ancient elements of Christianity he most wanted to see recovered in the broader evangelical church, Chan didn't hesitate for long.
"Communion," he answered.
"Holy Communion, the mystery, the reverence, the centrality..."
That language is notable considering Chan's much-discussed journey in recent years toward a deeper appreciation of historic Christian practices and the Eucharist.
The conversation wasn't about abandoning evangelical convictions, however. Early in the interview, Chan made clear that theological differences still matter. He said there are foundational doctrines over which correction or rebuke may be necessary, specifically pointing to historic Christian orthodoxy and the Nicene Creed.
But disagreement, he insisted, shouldn't automatically mean Christians stop loving one another.
Chan also revealed something more personal about where he believes his own ministry may be heading.
The megastages don't seem to hold the attraction they once did.
"I don't know if I really want to speak at the big things anymore," he told Koulianos.
Instead, Chan said he increasingly enjoys sitting with small groups of leaders, looking people in the eyes, breaking bread together and encouraging believers who may be struggling. He even admitted that sometimes he feels more spiritually effective with a group of ten people than standing before a massive crowd.
For a preacher whose books have sold millions and whose sermons have been watched around the world, that's quite the reversal.
The episode, released Aug. 13, centers officially on "holiness, unity, and the church," but underneath those themes is a striking question about modern evangelicalism itself: Has the church become too good at creating Christian celebrities? The episode had already attracted more than 11,000 views when captured in the source material.
Chan seems increasingly determined that the next chapter of his ministry won't be about making Francis Chan bigger.
And judging from this conversation, he'd be perfectly happy if the whole Christian celebrity machine got smaller too.
